Comments on: How Would the Apple Store Handle Church Membership?

By: zachhoag

zachhoag — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 01:02:37 +0000

ChrisMorton82 zachhoag Thanks for fleshing that out. I think what I’m getting at is that I see a really strong connection between church membership and the kind of divisive gossip and bashing that can happen online toward other members, leaders, etc. in a local congregation. So I would agree heartily that covenant membership should include a strong commitment to not go this route, to keep the matthew 18 guidelines intact for offenses in the community, etc.
BUT, I think critique can be a discipline that some Christians are prophetically called to for the sake of the church at large (not critiquing their local congregation, etc.). The internet can be a positive tool in this regard, and can mirror Jesus’s very public and very strong critique of the broader religious/Temple system of his day (and all the biblical prophets’ critique of the systems of their day).
On the anabaptist note, I think of Hauerwas who recently called American (conservative) Christians “corrupt” and said they should have their Bibles taken away from them. That’s the kind of strong, public, prophetic critique that messes with power structures but is necessary to keep the church faithful to her vocation in the world. (This has always been the prophetic task, btw.)
Thanks for heading down this rabbit trail with me, I’ll leave it there so as not to monopolize your comment section :).

By: ChrisMorton82

ChrisMorton82 — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 21:03:20 +0000

zachhoag ChrisMorton82 Hey Zach, I think internet critique can be dangerous, but it is only an example of the problem. Critique, itself is not a problem, and can be quite helpful. What I’m aiming at is the idea that we should start by respecting that the other person is made in the image of God and means well.
Here are some problems with what is often passed off as critique:
1) Critique for it’s own sake is just being critical. As I already stated, a prophet also must illustrate the alternative.
2) There’s a thin line between critique and outright bashing. Winsome, thoughtful and kind criticism is not natural, and requires pretty heavy dose of the fruit of the spirit to pull off.
3) In the post-Christendom West, we have to deal with a well earned reputation for constant negativity. I’d rather be known for pointing to Jesus than away from other Christians.
4) I’m not sure how to reconcile public critique with the clear instructions of Matthew 18.
5) I’m not sure what rights Christians have to critique those outside the baptized community.
6) The best argument against something is embodying the alternative. What can I say, I’m an anabaptist.

By: zachhoag

zachhoag — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:06:45 +0000

ChrisMorton82 zachhoag So Chris, it seems like you are speaking pretty specifically about internet critique? Thus, if this post is about church membership, then you would be saying that church members shouldn’t criticize people using the internet medium? Just trying to get at the specifics of #5. Help me if I’m misunderstanding.

By: ChrisMorton82

ChrisMorton82 — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 20:53:37 +0000

zachhoag There is a Christian analog to the Apple rule “always assume positive intent.” It would be “remember this person is made in the image of God.”
How much of what is said, especially on the internet, about other people is something we would not say to their faces? If we sat in a room, the two people in a disagreement, with Jesus, their loving creator, would we proudly display our “zingers?”
My fear is that what we call “critique” is primarily about the thrill of being clever and being right. The result can be toxic. Rather than prompting meaningful discussion, it just divides into teams.
Prophecy is much more than simply “speaking truth to power.” It is also presenting an alternative vision of life in the kingdom of God. Let’s be respectful when we criticize, and never do it unless we can present a kingdom alternative.

By: zachhoag

zachhoag — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 20:25:15 +0000

hey man, just got a chance to read this. i love apple and appreciate the lessons from their culture. i also think church membership is a super important issue, one that has ancient roots and important ramifications for what the church, and even salvation, mean in our time.
my primary questions arise around whether there is some manipulation inherent in a commercial environment (apple) that may taint the lessons learned. also, i’d love to hear you expand on #5 a bit – how would you define or qualify this further? your dismissal of the jesus/pharisee dynamic was too simplistic imo, and you fail to account for pervasive examples in the biblical narrative of strong/prophetic critique/words toward unjust/abusive ppl.